The Book of Enoch and the Book of Moses

This isn’t my idea, but rather is borrowed from a poster at  Below are 21 similarities between the story of Enoch as found in the Book of Enoch and the Book of Moses.  The Book of Enoch was found and translated long after Joseph Smith published the Book of Moses.  It is remarkable, therefore, that there are so many similarities.  It is another evidence that Joseph Smith was called of God and had the gift to translate by the gift and power of God.

Number 1–Enoch sees Noah protected by the hand of God

Moses 7:43–Enoch saw that Noah built an ark; and that the Lord smiled upon it, and held it in his own hand; but upon the residue of the wicked the floods came.

1 Enoch 67:2–At this time the angels are working with wood (making an ark) and when it is completed, I shall place my hands upon it and protect it.

Number 2–Enoch Sees All Things

Moses 7:67a–And the Lord showed Enoch all things, even unto the end of the world.

2 Enoch 40:1–Now therefore, my children, I know everything; . . . my eyes have seen from the beginning even to the end, and from the end to the recommencement.


Number 3–Enoch Sees Men’s Deeds

Moses 7:41–The Lord spake unto Enoch, and told Enoch all the doings of the children of men, wherefore Enoch knew.

2 Enoch 53:2–See how I have written down all the deeds of every person before the creation, and I am writing down what is done among all persons forever.


Number 4–Enoch Sees All Generations

Moses 7:4–(the Lord said to Enoch): Look, and I will show unto thee the world for the space of many generations.

3 Enoch 45–And I saw Adam and his generation, their deeds and their thoughts (etc.) . . . And every deed of every generation, whether done or to be done in the time to come, to all generations, till the end of time.


Number 5–Premortal Existence

Moses 6:51–And he called upon our father Adam by his own voice, saying: I am God; I made the world, and men before they were in the flesh.

2 Enoch 23:4-5–You (Enoch) sit down and write–all the souls of men, whatever of them are not yet born, . . . For all the souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth.


Number 6–The Earth Speaks

Moses 7:48a–Enoch looked upon the earth; and he heard a voice from the bowels thereof, saying: Wo, wo is me, the mother of men; I am pained, I am weary, because of the wickedness of my children.

1 Enoch 7:6–(After a description of the wickedness on the earth) And then the earth brought an accusation against the oppressors.


Number 7–Enoch Weeps

Moses 7:44–And as Enoch saw this, he had bitterness of soul, and wept over his brethren, and said unto the heavens: I will refuse to be comforted.

2 Enoch 41:1–And I (Enoch) sighed and burst into tears, and I said concerning their disreputable depravity, Oh how miserable . . ..


Number 8–Mahijuah/Mahujah

Moses 6:39-40–[W]hen they heard him (Enoch) . . . fear came on all them that heard him. And there came a man unto him (Enoch), whose name was Mahijah, and said to him: Tell us plainly who thou art and from whence thou comest?

Dead Sea Scrolls 4QEnGiants 1:20–[Thereupon] all the giants [and the nephilim] took fright and they summoned Mahujah and he came to them: And the giants asked him and sent him to Enoch […] saying to him: Go then […] and under pain of death you must […] and listen to his voice; and tell him that he is to explain to you and to interpret the dreams.


Number 9–Enoch a Lad at 65

Moses 6:31–Why is it that I have found favor in thy sight, and am but a lad?

2 Enoch 10:4–And the men answered me (Enoch), This place, youth, has been prepared for those who practice godless uncleanness on the earth.

3 Enoch 3:2–[Enoch] answered, I have seventy names; . . . however, my King calls me Youth.

3 Enoch 4:2–Why, then, do they call you Youth in the heavenly heights? He answered, Because I am Enoch, the son of Jared.

3 Enoch 4:10–Because I am young in their company (the holy angels) and a mere youth among them in days and months and years–therefore they call me Youth.


Number 10–Enoch Given Right to God’s Throne

Moses 7:59–[Enoch to God] Thou hast made me, and given unto me a right to thy throne.

3 Enoch 10:1-3–[Enoch speaking] The Holy One made for me a throne like the throne of glory . . . He placed it at the door of the seventh palace and sat me down upon it.


Number 11–The Lord’s House Shall Be Called Jerusalem

Testament of Levi 10:4 (quoting from an otherwise unknown Enoch source)–For the house which the Lord shall choose shall be called Jerusalem, as the Book of Enoch the Righteous maintains.

Moses 7:62b–For there shall be my tabernacle and it shall be called Zion, a new Jerusalem.


Number 12–God Gives Adam Free Will

Moses 6:56–And it is given unto them to know good from evil; wherefore they are agents unto themselves.

Moses 7:32b–In the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency.

2 Enoch 30:15–And I . . . called his name Adam. And I gave him his free will; and I pointed out to him the two ways–light and darkness. And I said unto him, This is good for you, but that is bad.


Number 13–Enoch In Possession of Adam’s Book

Moses 6:5, 8–Enoch quotes extensively from Book of Adam (Moses 6:51-68) that was kept by Adam and his posterity.

2 Enoch 33:11-12–[God to Enoch]–For I will give you an intercessor, Enoch; Michael, on account of your handwritings and the handwritings of your fathers–Adam and Seth. They will not be destroyed until the final age. For I have commanded my angels to guard them and to command the things of time to preserve the handwritings of your fathers so that they might not perish in the impending flood.


Number 14–Restoration of Book of Enoch Predicted in Enochic Literature

2 Enoch 35:1-3–And I will leave a righteous man (Noah), a member of your tribe, together with all his house, who will act in accordance with my will. And from their seed will arise a generation, the last of many, and very rapacious. And I shall raise up for that generation someone who will reveal to them the books in your handwriting and those of your fathers, by means of which the guardians of the earth will show themselves to the faithful men. And they will be recounted to that generation, and they will be glorified in the end more than at the first.

Moses 1:41–(God to Moses) And in a day when the children of men shall esteem my words as naught and take many of them from the book which thou shalt write, behold, I will raise up another like unto thee; and they shall be had again among the children of men–among as many as shall believe.


Number 15–Enoch Clothed with Glory

Moses 7:3–As I stood upon the mount, I behld the heavens open, and I was clothed upon with glory.

2 Enoch 22:8-10–The LORD said to Micahel, Take Enoch, and extract (him) from the earthly clothing. And anoint him with the delightful oil, and put (him) into the clothes of glory. . . . And I gazed at myself, and I had become like one of the glorious ones, and there was no observable difference.


Number 16–Enoch Sees the Saints Arise

Moses 7:56–And I heard a loud voice; . . . and the saints arose, and were crowned at the right hand of the Son of Man, with crowns of glory.

3 Enoch 44:7–I saw the souls of the fathers of the world, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the rest of the righteous, who had been raised from their graves and had ascended to heaven.


Number 17–Enoch Sees the Return of Zion From Heaven

Moses 7:63–Then shalt thou and all thy city meet them there, and we will receive them into our bosom, and they shall see us; and we will fall upon their necks, and they shall fall upon our necks, and we will kiss each other.

1 Enoch 39:1–And it shall come to pass in those days that the elect and holy children will descend from the high heavens, and their seed will become one with the children of men.


Number 18–A Prison Prepared for the Wicked

Moses 7:57–And as many of the spirits as were in prison came forth, and stood on the right hand of God; and the remaineder were reserved in chains of darkness until the judgment of the great day.

1 Enoch 10:13-14–In those days they will lead them into the bottom of the fire–and in torment–in the prison where they will be locked up forever. And at the time…, those who collaborated with them will be bound together with them from henceforth unto the end of (all) generations.


Number 19–Chains of Satan

Moses 7:26–And he beheld Satan, and he had a great chain in his hand, and it veiled the whole face of the earth with darkness.

1 Enoch 53:3-4–So I saw all the angels of plague cooperating and preparing all the chains of Satan. And I asked the angel of peace, who was going with me, For whom are they preparing these chains?


Number 20–Enoch Acts as Intercessor for Mankind

Moses 7:49-50–Enoch . . . cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, . . . Wilt thou not bless the children of Noah? . . . I ask thee . . . that thou wilt have mercy upon Noah and his seed.

2 Enoch 18:7–And that is why God has judged them with a great judgment; and they mourn their brothers, and they will be outraged on the great day of the LORD. And I said . . ., I have seen your brothers and their deeds and their torments . . . and I have prayed for them.


Number 21–Lions (Wild Beasts) Roar

Moses 7:13–And …[Enoch] led the people of God, and their enemies came to battle against them; and he spake the word of the Lord, and the earth trembled, … and the roar of the lions was heard out of the wilderness; and all nations feared greatly.

4QEnGiants Frg 8–[Ohyah the enemy of Enoch) … by the strength of my power, [I had attacked] all flesh and I have made war with them . . . they live in holy abodes, and … they are more powerful than I. [Thereupon …] the roaring of the wild beasts came and the multitude of the wild animals began to cry out.

38 thoughts on “The Book of Enoch and the Book of Moses

  1. I think it would be interesting to compare the 1821 “Book of Enoch” by Laurence rather than the later version you are using and see if the same parallels can be found.

  2. I dont know much about mormonism but I do know this….the book od Enoch has been in existence way before the 1st century which makes your statement untrue “The Book of Enoch was found and translated long after Joseph Smith published the Book of Moses.”
    Jude quotes from the book of Enoch in Jude 1:9 (KJV) “8Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
    9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.”

  3. Pascah,

    Thanks for visiting my blog! I hope that you take the time to read a little more around here and learn more about Mormonism.

    I think you misunderstood my statement about the Book of Enoch. I didn’t state that the Book of Enoch wasn’t in existence at the time of Joseph Smith, I said it was “discovered and translated” into English long after Joseph Smith published the Book of Moses. The former statement would have been untrue, the latter is indisputable fact. That’s precisely the point, the Book of Moses contains motifs and ideas that are found in the Book of Enoch (which is an ancient book!), and yet there is no way Joseph Smith had access to the Book of Enoch. Thus, it is another evidence that the Book of Moses is authentic and Joseph Smith was indeed a prophet.

  4. “The first English translation of the Bodleian/Ethiopic manuscript was published in 1821 by Richard Laurence, titled The Book of Enoch, the prophet: an apocryphal production, supposed to have been lost for ages; but discovered at the close of the last century in Abyssinia; now first translated from an Ethiopic manuscript in the Bodleian Library.”

  5. I stand corrected! I guess the next question would be, how likely would Joseph Smith have had access to this translation of the Book of Enoch in rural United States in 1830?

  6. This is what I could dig up. I guess Quinn mentioned that, in 1825, Thomas Hartwell Horne’s four-volume work, Introduction to the Critical Study and Knowledge of the Holy Scriptures was advertised in Palmyra’s newspaper and that apparently 1 Enoch appears mentioned in Horne’s section, “On the Apocryphal Books Attached to the Old Testament” (see Mormonism and the Magic World View, pg 191).

    Digging further, even before that was an 1813 publication- There was a very popular and common source for a summation of The Book of Enoch which was highly popular. The Book of Enoch was first discovered by James Bruce who published a highly popular travel narrative called Travels to discover the source of the Nile. The 1813 edition of this book has the following summary of the contents of the Book of Enoch:

    “The translation from the Greek, which is found in the Ethiopic bible, under the name of Metsahaf Henoc, is divided into 90 Kefel, or chapters. It begins with this preface: ” In the name of God, the merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and of great mercy and holiness. This book is the book of Henoch the prophet. May his blessing and help be with him, who loves him for ever and ever. Amen. Chap. I. The word of the blessing of Enoch, with which he blessed the chosen and the righteous, that were of old. May it be in the day of temptation a protection against all the evil and wicked. And Enoch lifted up his voice and spake, a holy man of God, while his eyes were open, and he saw a holy vision in the heavens, which the angels revealed to him. And I heard from them every thing, and I understood what I saw.” After this follows the history of the angels, of their having descended from heaven, and produced giants with the daughters of men ; of their having instructed these in the arts of war, and peace, and luxury. The names of the leading spirits are mentioned, which appear to be of Hebrew original, but corrupted by Greek pronunciation. The resolution of God to destroy them is then revealed to Enoch. These topics occupy about 18 chapters, which Mr Bruce had translated into English, but, weary of the subject, proceeded no further.

    “From the 18th to the 50th chapter, Enoch is led by Uriel and Raphael through a series of visions, not much connected with the preceding. He saw the burning valley of the fallen spirits, the paradise of the saints, the utmost ends of the earth, the treasuries of the thunder and lightning, winds, rain, dew, and the angels who presided over these. He was led into the place of the general judgment, saw the ancient of days on his throne, and all the kings of the earth before him.

    “At the 52d chap. Noah is said to have been alarmed at the enormous wickedness of mankind, and, fearing vengeance, to have implored the advice of his greatgrandfather. Enoch told him, that a flood of waters would destroy the whole race of man, and a flood of fire punish the angels, whom the deluge could not affect. (Chap. 59.) The subject of the angels is resumed. Semeiaza, Artukafa, Arimeen, Kakaba-el, Tusael, Ramiel, Danael, and others to the amount of twenty, appear at the head of the fallen spirits, and give fresh instances of their rebellious disposition. At Kefel (62), Enoch gives his son Mathusala, a long account of the sun, moon, stars, the year, the months, the winds, and like physical phenomena. This takes up eight chapters, after which the patriarch makes a recapitulation of what he had uttered in the former pages. The remaining 20 chapters are employed on the history of the deluge, Noah’s preparations for it, and the success which attended them. The destruction of all flesh, excepting his family, and the execution of Divine vengeance on the angels and their followers, conclude this absurd and tedious work.”….safari&pg=PA415

    Unlike Lawrence’s work this book was highly popular. While it does contain the whole story of the Book of Enoch, it does contain some of the more interesting tidbits.

  7. I would say guest writer 800+ pretty much just slaughtered your apologetic. As I was reading the blog, I was thinking. I’ve already seen hundreds of examples of Mormon historical revisionism and now I’m going to have to look into this as well, but thanks to the guest writer…. he did the work for me.

    This just makes it look like Joseph Smith was plagiarizing, not translating.

  8. Mike, not so fast, buddy.:) First of all, the 1813 summation (even if Joseph Smith had access to it, and there is no way of saying he did or didn’t) does not contain the clear direct parallels mentioned in the blog post. In other words, there is no way he could garner all of that information out of that short summation. So, that’s clearly not our source and can be ruled out. Horne’s work only mentions the Book of Enoch?! How, exactly, could Joseph Smith garner so much information simply out of a text he may or may not have had access to (based on a newspaper mentioning it) when the text doesn’t actually contain the Book of Enoch, but only mentions it?

    So, the question still remains as to whether he actually had access to the Book of Enoch itself after it was published. So far the only answer we have is that he could have read a newspaper article that MENTIONS a four volume book that MENTIONS the Book of Enoch. That’s a stretch for sure. The other possibility is that he could have read a two paragraph summation of the Book of Enoch and garnered all of the information out of that. That’s a stretch too. If Joseph Smith was plagiarizing, you’ve done a poor job at showing his source thus far.

  9. I agree that this is still an open topic. All I have shown is that translations had been done and discussions were being had about the Book of Enoch long before 1830. Perhaps some went into more specifics than the one I posted.

    Also, you are lessening the 1825 Palmyra publication too much. Quinn states: “Horne’s summary of Laurence’s book was on sale in Palmyra from 1825 onward…” So the book in Palmyra contained a summary of the translation of the Book of Enoch (presumably more thorough than the footnote summary I posted above).

    Combine an understanding of a few books of scriptures and the summary already posted, and you might end up with a lot of the parallels you have posted (and if it had been written a bit differently, you would have found different parallels, as parallels can be found between virtually any writings). However, I agree that Sidney or Joseph might have needed more than the quotes I have posted.

    The parallel that seems to have the most substance to me is the Mahijuah/Mahujah parallel that comes from the Dead Sea scroll. However, one thing that lessens that is a verse in Genesis that even links the name Enoch with one that seems awfully similar.

    “And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.” Gen. 4:18

  10. Guest Writter 800+, good comments. I still think the Horne’s summary of Laurence’s book being on sale in Palmyra and therefore accessible to Joseph Smith to be a stretch. Joseph Smith couldn’t even afford a Bible until well into or perhaps after the Book of Mormon translation. There is no record of which I am aware that Joseph Smith owned the book. He would have had accessed it somewhere else such, which I suppose wouldn’t have been impossible, but I’m not sure how probable it was. I guess somethings we may never know with any certainty.

  11. You must run in different circles than my father.:) It doesn’t matter if you own a book or not. In the Burned-over District, the topic of conversation would have been abuzz about what was in the Book of Enoch. Hours of conversation would have been had about what people had heard or read about it. The fact that summaries were to be had, meant that people would have been talking about it. At least, that’s the case of the circles my father affiliates with.

  12. Guest Writer 800+ and Mike Birkhead, if the Burned-over District was all abuzz about the Book of Enoch and Joseph Smith plagarized it, do you have evidence in period writing exposing the plagarism? How did Joseph Smith’s followers not become aware of the plagarism and declare him a fraud?

  13. That Joseph sure fooled us. Usually that is the goal of a con-man, to fool people 150 years in the future by using vague and obscure sources no one has heard of.

  14. You need to understand that the Book of Enoch which was first translated into English in 1821 is also called 1 Enoch. It is distinct from 2 and 3 Enoch. The portions or Enoch which you parallel with the Book of Moses are from 2 and 3 Enoch. Both 2 and 3 Enoch were translated into English long after Joseph Smith was dead. Therefore, there is no way Joseph had access to the elements of 2 and 3 Enoch that are so similar to what we find in the Book of Moses.

  15. I love that last quote by David which is supported by Hugh Nibley who discusses the topic at great length!

  16. Two and a half years later:-). I find it incredible that Joseph had no access to 2 Enoch, 3 Enoch, Book of the Giants and unlikely access to 1 Enoch and that there are these 21 similarities between these ancient sources and the Book of Moses. It seems the debate died suddenly after David correctly provided the timetable of when these Books of Enoch were available. :-)

  17. I’ll just respond to myself. Here is another perspective on the matter by Cheryl Bruno in her article applicable to the discussion. She states:

    “Some Mormon writers continue to follow Nibley’s tradition of basing Smith’s prophetic status upon his ability to parallel the Enoch pseudepigrapha without having had access to these ancient writings. This view is problematic.”

    She further states in a footnote: “Many apologists argue that revelation is the only viable origin for Smith’s version of the Enoch stories, despite probable access by Smith to numerous contemporary resources. For representative apologist approaches, see Nibley; Bradshaw; see Cirillo for information on Enoch sources easily available to Smith.”

    Her theory discounts the Book of Moses as being received by revelation and makes her best case that it, the Book of Moses, is the product Joseph access to pseudepigrapha or even more likely Joseph’s access to “Masonic tradition rather than other sources for inspiration in his Enoch writings.”

    Interesting article.

  18. Nice comment Steve.:-) I stated earlier that “I find it incredible that Joseph had no access to 2 Enoch, 3 Enoch, Book of the Giants and unlikely access to 1 Enoch and that there are these 21 similarities between these ancient sources and the Book of Moses”. I am reading the Book of Moses again. It feels true!

  19. Another good comment old Steve. In addition to parallel number 8 Mahijah/Mahujah Bradshaw, i think, made this additional interesting observation; “In the Masoretic Hebrew text of the Bible, the variants MHYY [Mahijah] and MHWY [Mahujah] both appear in a single verse (with the suffix “-el”) as references to the same person, namely Mehuja-el. The KJV renders both variants identically. Moreover, the Joseph Smith versions of the name drop the “-el” suffix to the name thus differing from the Hebrew text of the Bible and in accord with its Dead Sea Scrolls  equivalent…” It is doubtful that Masonic oral history of Enoch providing this source to Joseph Smith. Keep them coming Steve.:-)

  20. Steve, Im glad you revived this. The earlier poster who said essentially that all these paralleles are nullified since “the book of enoch” was available before 1830 is astonishingly ignorant. The majority of these parallels, which happen to be the most impressive, come from 2 enoch, 3rd enoch, and the book of the giants found in 1948 along with all of the other dead sea literature. 2 and 3 enoch also have very late dates of discovery but dont remember them off the top of my head but can be found in Bradshaws article about the moses/enoch parallels found on Interpreters web site.

    The book of moses offers some of the best apologetic evidences of the lds church’s truth claims, i am suprised it is not used more often.

    Ps ive read a non-lds review of the article that claims josephs enoch knowledge came through masonic means. The reviewer, as was myself, was totally unimpressed.

  21. Andrew thanks for keeping your blog open and commenting, I was getting a little lonely. Russell , if you ever read this I would be very interested where the review of Cheryl’s article can be found.

  22. Hey Steve I have a comment on a little different subject. There is so much on the Mormon blogosphere about doubt and celebrating doubt. Nothing wrong with doubt but I prefer to celebrate faith. I also see a trend in discounting the importance of the historicity of the Book of Mormon and other restoration scripture like the Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses. In other words they (the BOM, BOA) can be19th century productions without losing their value as canonized scriptures. They can testify of Christ and can contain his words without being being historical. I am surprised with this argument, but respect those who hold this view. I’ll come back in several weeks and give my view of the many comments this will generate!

  23. Today in our Fast & Testimony meeting a member of the bishopric who is a very successful trial lawyer conducted. He bore his testimony that the Book of Mormon is an ancient record translated in our day. He testified that by reading that Book that one can gain a knowledge of its truthfulness. The Book of Mormon is an ancient record that is true, therefore there was a Lehi and a Sariah and a real Moroni. There really were gold plates and a seer who translated them. If there were no plates, no seer stones nor a real Mormon then the story is a fabrication. If the Book of Mormon is a fabrication then so is the First Vision. If there is no vision then there is no priesthood along with its exalting ordinances. As he and the others testified of the truthfulness of the Gospel I felt a peace and assurance of the truthfulness of what they said. How does one know the truth of spiritual matters? Paul taught that spiritual things are known through the spirit and Moroni said we can know the truth of all things through the power of the Holy Ghost.

  24. Hey Robert60 are you Steven Skabelund? One and the same.:-) Maybe I’ll use still another name for my conversation.

  25. Steve, you may be interested in a recent comment by Ben Spackman on a Book Review of Adam S. Miller from the Common Consent blog. Ben S. that he “certainly take[s] issue with casually throwing in doubt as a spiritual gift, though I leave open the possibility that with the right definition and contextualization, it could be justified. (I can’t quite imagine what those might be, but leave it open.) But as this is apparently a loose translation (without explanatory notes?)” I understand he (Ben S.) is one of the authors of the Wheat and Tares blog.

    Earlier I said, “Nothing wrong with doubt but I prefer to celebrate faith.” I am sure we will continue to hear about much about doubt but without faith what good is doubt.

  26. I really should say nothing wrong nor good about doubt by itself, how we react to it can make it a positive or a negative feeling.

  27. “I guess the next question would be, how likely would Joseph Smith have had access to this translation of the Book of Enoch in rural United States in 1830?”

    I know the answer to that. It is between slim and none. The only known American copy of an earlier edition of Laurence’s “Book of Enoch the Prophet” in the New York area (an 1828 printing of the 1821 first edition) was acquired in the early 20th century by an institution in New York. That is too late for Joseph Smith to have had access to it.

    Furthermore, in the 1838 and 1883 revised reprint editions of the work, the scarcity of previous editions of the volume was discussed in the prefatory material. It was stated to be so rare in the previous editions that many had concocted the idea of a Church conspiracy that suppressed the volume from the public. And, that was in Europe where it was published! The 1838 edition denied the suppression and stated that that third edition was printed as a result of a large order from America. No previous orders from America are mentioned at all.

    In any case, I cannot imagine it being less rare across the ocean in upstate New York at the time of the previous editions published during the lifetime of Joseph Smith (the 1832 second edition is too late, too, since the Book of Moses was written from 1830-1831), and that would have been available to him to copy from in any way.

    So, yeah, between slim and none. Probably much, much closer to none.

  28. I loved the comment made one year ago today by me (I guess i am a little proud) . “I find it incredible that Joseph had no access to 2 Enoch, 3 Enoch, Book of the Giants and unlikely access to 1 Enoch and that there are these 21 similarities between these ancient sources and the Book of Moses”. I am reading the Book of Moses again. It feels true!” The source for the Book of Moses is the same in 1830 as it was in 2014 and 2015. I find the analysis incredible. My guess is that the source (revelation) will also be the same in 2125. :)

  29. Today at our stake conference the visiting G.A. rhetorically asked why we hold Joseph Smith in such high regard. He answered that because of Joseph we know Jesus so much better. In the modern time Joseph saw Jesus along with His Father. The speaker then said yes the Father and Son were seen by Joseph — Joseph saw a Family! In a internet age when so much negative is written about Joseph this G.A.s witness rang so true to me. I felt it the truthfulness of his words like I have hundreds of times before as I have read, listed to and pondered the mission of Joseph Smith.

    Joseph brought forth the BOM by the gift and power of God. It is the second testimony of Jesus — it is written to convince the Jew and Gentile (all of us) that JESUS IS THE CHRIST. Its four principal authors Nephi, Jacob, Mormon and Moroni all saw Jesus. Did not Moroni speaking to our generation and say “And then ye shall know that I have seen Jesus, and that he hath talked to me face to face…” HIs father Mormon in his 15th year “was visited of the Lord, and tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus. Over 900 years earlier Jacob and his older brother Nephi both saw Jesus.

    We so we sing praises to the man who communed with Jehovah. For it was Jesus that “anointed that Prophet and Seer” — even Joseph Smith.

  30. Interesting that truth is based on a feeling. The Taliban feels its gospel is true, Catholics feel their gospel is true, Baptists feel their gospel is true, Hindus feel their gospel is true, Warren Jeffs and all his nut bags felt their gospel was true….they cant all be true. Too bad there isn’t some evidence that Joe Smith didn’t just make all this up. If I was God and I wanted to restore my gospel on the earth I would make the message as believable as possible to save as many people as possible. Not give a treasure seeking boy with a reputation for deceiving people gold plates that he can never actually show to anyone……kind of fishy if you think about it logically and come out from under the spell of “I am right” and ” I know the church is true”.

    I don’t think I would sing praises to a man that married and had sex with a 14 year old girl or lied to his wife about how many mistresses he was bonking, or commanded a newspaper be destroyed because he didn’t like the words it printed ….. by their fruits you shall know them…

  31. The Taliban have no gospel and they don’t base it upon a feeling. Hinduism has no gospel. Baptists do not pray to know the truth by the influence of the Holy Ghost, and neither do Catholics. Epic fails of an analogy. I cannot speak to Jeffs and his followers, however, not being familiar enough with their beliefs and practices. But, people also can be misled. There is no corner on that market and people are people and many people are suckers of one sort or another, bending their ears to the whispers of the evil one.

    Evideces that he didn’t make it all up? The internal evidences of the Book of Mormon are the splattering all over the book that can only be seen by careful study and application. Similar can be said about the Book of Moses, which is the subject of this thread. You explain how it was that Joseph Smith, knowing no Egyptian, got an Egyptian-styled phrase-name, with correct grammar and vocabulary and equivalent meaning, and put it into the Book of Mormon, and you might have a small point. That word? Irreantum. It is composed of the words jr, r [or jrrj, either answers to the correct form and meaning], nt(w), and (t)m. (Characters in the parentheses tend to get dropped in written Egyptian.) And, it is grammatically correct Egyptian. It’s literal meaning is “more than all bodies of water” or “more than all waters” and by interpretation into hebrew actually has a roughly equivalent meaning of “many waters.” There was nothing from which Joseph Smith could have gotten that. I have checked. The words nt(w) (“bodies of water”/”waters”) and (t)m (“all”) did not begin to appear in Egyptian lexicons until recent decades, being unknown in Joseph Smith’s time. Lucky guess?

    How did he get genuine Egyptian names (Anti, Ani, Parhoran, Kherihor, etc) into the Book of Mormon, knowing no Egyptian whatsoever? Lucky guesses? How many lucky guesses does there need to be before people sit up and take notice?

    I have checked the availability of the Book of Enoch to Joseph Smith as well. Something Quinn didn’t do was to check the acquisitiion date on the copy he claimed could have been available to Joseph Smith. It was acquired long after his death. The edition Quinn claimed could have been available was so rare in even Europe that it sparked conpiracy theories that its translator had pulled and destroyed all copies and no one could get one. What would be the likelihood that a single copy would make its way here to America for Joseph Smith to access in Harmony, Pennsylvania (no library nearby!), or Kirtland, Ohio, in the event of such rarity in Europe? It wasn’t until the 1838 edition of Launrence’s Enoch that a large order for the Laurence Book of Enoch was made available to America as a result of people being exposed to it in Europe and telling others about it in America. The translator of the book said so about these things himself, as did the introduction of the 1883 reprinting.

    How did Joseph Smith manage to get the name Alma correct as a male given name among Hebrews? You were aware that archaeology backs that up, weren’t you? Indeed it does. The name Alma son of Judah was found in Palestine in 1977. Lucky guess?

    How did Joseph Smith, knowing no Egyptian, get the very Egyptian idea of gods as gatekeepers into the Book of Mormon? This wasn’t know until the pyramid of Teti was discovered and the texts translated into English and made available in the Americas–long after Smith’s death.

    How did Joseph Smith, knowing no languages but English in 1828-1830, know that Egyptian that had been altered could potentially take up less room than standard Egyptian and Hebrew? How would he know that Egyptian could have been altered at all? It was, but how could he have known? There were Hieratic and Demotic forms, both of which became abbreviated and able to compress into smaller spaces. How would or could he also have possibly known that Egyptian has some very interesting properties in writing that could cause a person who knew Hebrew to stumble at the placing of words in the text. Again, Joseph Smith knew neither Egyptian nor Hebrew and yet he managed to correctly identify pitfalls to using Egyptian instead of Hebrew in written records. So, how did he do it?

    As to what God does and how he does it, consider that God often uses the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. Look it up. It’s in your Bible. And, while on the subject, there are even pretty colorful stories about the various prophets and other characters in the Bible that are of interest if you think peceived misdeeds invalidate the whole, overall message.

    And, you have gotten some other facts wrong as well, but I am not surprised. He may have married a 14 year old but he did not consummate that marriage until years later. In addition, history in that time shows that marriage to what we now consider underaged was not unheard of in those days. People didn’t get all tied up in knots about it like they do today. In my own wife’s Scottish ancestry, there is a guy who married an 11-year old, and they weren’t LDS. Young marriage still happens in the rest of the world, even today. Ever read the Talmud? Marriage to a 3 1/2-year-old is OK by that book. Don’t believe it? Look it up for yourself. Not to say I agree with marrying that young but why not mention it, too, while on the subject of young marriage?

    And, Joseph Smith wasn’t “boinking” mistresses. They were wives. He married them. It was not until later that he would mention them to her because he wasn’t completely sure of her reaction to the news. When he finally did mention it to her she went nuts and he actually hid from his wife out of fear. In a letter he wrote to the family of one of his plural wives, he warned them that they could not be safe if Emma was around. So, yeah, I might have had a small problem telling her, too. That doesn’t make him any less of a prophet any more than the real misdeeds of the prophets and apostles of the Bible are invalidated by what they did during their lives.

    Finally, Joseph Smith did not give the initial order to destroy that press. The city council ordered him to order the constable to suppress the press as a public nuisance. Not only is it in the historical records, it is also in his own personal journal that he was ordered as Mayor to do what he did by the Nauvoo City Council. If you are going to attack the Church, its teachings, the Book of Mormon or Book of Moses, or even Joseph Smith himself, perhaps it might behoove you to get a little more learning about the subject matter under your belt.

  32. Oh, and one other thing. Joseph Smith did show the plates of the Book of Mormon to others. Even after being tossed out of the Church they still testified that they saw something (and actually handled the plates in the case of the eight witnesses, and so said even under pressure).

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